This transcript has been edited for brevity.
JOHANNA: Hi, everyone, I’m Johanna. I’m one half of a currently two‑person team running the Arts Wellbeing Collective, dialing in from Wurundjeri Woi Wurrung land. I acknowledge the people of the Kulin Nation and I would like to pay my respects to Elders past and present and to any Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people joining us today.
I would also like to acknowledge that there may be many people today who have a lived experience of disability, neurodiversity and mental distress. We’re all here to learn how we can make life easier for each other, so please don’t be afraid to ask questions. Just keep them coming from that place of respect and inclusion that I am sure you all joined with today.
This webinar is one of the many free resources that the Arts Wellbeing Collective offers. We’re a mental health initiative for the performing arts but we’re widening that to all the creative industries. We have a preventive focus, so we like to set up healthy ways of working before it gets to a crisis point. We have resources on career planning, how to set up healthy touring practices, festivals, if you want to learn how to manage your energy before and after shows… all sorts of things.
This is quite new territory for us. We’ve previously just been focusing on mental health, but because there is such a large disability community in the arts, we’re acknowledging that being systematically excluded or not able to access the same opportunities is bad for mental health, with other knock‑on effects. This is a topic that people would really like to learn more about.
03m 35s – Intro: Dan Graham
DAN: Hi, everyone. I’m coming from Gadigal Country here in Sydney, New South Wales. My name is Dan Graham. As well as being a trained theatre director and arts access consultant, I come from an area of lived experience of disability with my neurodiversity. Basically I have been on both sides of the coin. In my role as a director, where possible I like to try to employ in my own productions those artists who have a disability. As Jo just mentioned a moment ago, one thing that does cause stress in a big competitive industry to begin with is how difficult it is and the opportunities for professional artists with a disability. I have just come back from a Churchill Fellowship which took me to New York and London where I did 30‑plus interviews to investigate this topic on access for professional artists who are neurodivergent. Thank you for having me.
05m 29s – Intro: Priya Addams Williams
PRIYA: Hi, everyone. My name is Priya. I work at the Dylan Alcott Foundation and I lead an initiative called the Shift 20 Initiative. The Dylan Alcott Foundation’s whole reason for being is to give people with disabilities the opportunity to do whatever they want in life. That might be related to sport or theatre and music, public speaking; it really has a lot of things we cover. A big part of ensuring that opportunity is looking at how they’re perceived in media. That is why we created the Shift 20 Initiative, which has been around for a little over a year now. The initiative works with brands to improve how they represent people with disability in their advertising campaigns and how to be more inclusive as well. So looking at things like obviously casting and representation but then also accessibility of comms. I come from an advertising background so not quite in the world but very similar in terms of casting processes. There’s probably a bit of overlap between people who go from theatre to advertising as well. I spent about a decade working in creative agencies before that on brands like Netflix, Virgin Australia and ANZ.
06m 51s – Getting into the casting room
JOHANNA: You mentioned there about making comms a lot more accessible, which leads to my next question. There are so many ways that we hire people in the performing arts. We have auditions; expression of interest processes; and, in dance or musical theatre, cattle call auditions. Self-tapes have become popular, and sometimes if you’re on a tight timeline, you try to hand pick people, things like that. How might these processes be inaccessible for someone with a disability?
DAN: I would say the first thing is getting into that room in the first place, both physically and emotionally. Not everyone in the performing arts may want to go to a performing arts institution, but it is very difficult for a number to even to get into that space to begin with. For example, accessibility for applications to apply to do such a course. I have my Masters in Directing and obviously it’s been some time now, but a lot of issues that I had in terms of applying and getting into drama school are still being addressed by friends and colleagues. How can we make it accessible to begin with? Yesterday was actually International Day of People with Disability, so it is very timely we are having this conversation.
We are not talking about a small percentage of the population or a niche market. Unfortunately, I would say that both sides of the industry are not seeing what could be of benefit as well. Both audience as well as artists are not being tapped.
So with the work that Priya, myself and others are doing and conversations like this, hopefully things can change.
10m 16s – Fear of making a mistake
JOHANNA: What do you think are some of the reasons why people, like you said, might not be coming to the table in the first place?
DAN: People may not admit to it, but the first thing I would say would be fear, and I say “fear” as the fear of making a mistake. I always say to people “I’m not saying I want mistakes to happen, but I much prefer the mistakes happen now”. Or “they shouldn’t have happened now, but you can only learn from where we are now”. It is like any kind of diverse community. I’m proud to be part of other communities as well as a disability neurodiverse community, and you can only learn from one’s mistakes. I saw a post ironically only last night where an industry friend with lived experience said: Where are people with disability leadership roles? And yes, there are many people, allies, friends and colleagues of mine, but if you are not seen or not represented, you literally can’t answer that imbalance.
JOHANNA: Priya, I think that’s very much what your organisation was set up to achieve as well.
PRIYA: Yes, absolutely. Dan mentioned that nearly 20% of Australians live with disability. Representation in ad campaigns, when we started Shift, was at less than 1%. We set about to literally shift it (no pun intended) to be more inclusive and encourage brands to be more representative of people with disability. The number one thing that we got, Dan, is when we spoke to brands, they said, “We’ve been wanting to do something in this space, we have just been too scared about getting it wrong. We’ve not known how to go about it. We’ve not wanted to appear tokenistic or inauthentic”. For a lot of people, it’s not necessarily that it’s just been easier to represent people without disability; it is lower risk. For us it has been about trying to be that educational partner and a hand to hold to help walk people through the process of casting inclusively. So even earlier, you’re thinking about how disability can be interwoven into your storytelling and doing that with lived experience.
13m 12s – Ways to be more accessible
PRIYA: Going back to your original question – The current system is not necessarily workable for people with disability. I would say there are a few key things. One is time. I am sure that your world is similar to advertising, in which our timelines on productions just get shorter and shorter. I am not proud to say but I have certainly ‑ in my previous life – looked at a production schedule before and said: “Do we really need 10 days for casting? Can we crunch that down to five so we still make our live date?” Which now I realise is cutting so many potential people out of the process of submitting a self-tape and hopefully being part of that production. So I think being really conscious of your timelines and what you have in place to ensure that people with disability have the time to actually put themselves forward.
I will speak about Casting Call a little later but I have been speaking to someone who wants to submit a personality tape to us. It’s been a few weeks in the making because they only have a support worker who is in two periods a week. We need to coordinate timings between their support worker coming in and when I’m free as well. So the more time that you’re able to give people to be involved, the better. Then the second is physical spaces as well. Ensuring that there are ramps where possible, that the only way to get into a building isn’t just stairs. So accessible spaces and accessible processes as well, which I know we will talk about in a second. But I would say physical spaces and time are two key ones to keep in mind.
15m
JOHANNA: What is some advice that you give if someone came up to you and said, “Hey, I’d like to start making my practices more accessible”? Keeping in mind that sometimes these things require budget but I’ve seen a lot of casting calls from student films, where this is perhaps their first time auditioning people and they really want to start off right.
DAN: I always give the example of a couple of years ago when I had a directing residency at Atlantic Theatre Company in New York. This is my own prejudgment about myself but I was nervous to mention my own accessibility requirements. Initially you are concerned, and – I am not alone when I say this – but at the moment, I haven’t got any regular work. I am not even talking about performing arts work. I remember when I slowly felt comfortable about disclosing my access requirements to Atlantic Theatre Company, they said to me, “Dan… (luckily, I don’t have issues in terms of reading) ‑ look at the employment form if you apply for a job for us. One of the questions was: what accessibility requirements do you have?” For anyone, disability or otherwise. That can be a bit confronting for a person with a disability who is used to being put at the bottom of a pile, so to speak. It was a place where people – from a student film to a major film, major theatre production, TV theatre production, commercial, et cetera – can put down what support they need. Basically an access rider. As an industry, we have to make sure that individuals and the community as a whole feel safe enough to say that in the first place. But yes, it is a practical thing that one can do.
I don’t just do work that deals with disability. There was one project… When I mentioned it was personal because of my lived experience, someone whom I had met numerous times commented, “but you seem normal, Dan”. This was only about two, three years ago. Basically when you have that promoted to you from a place has the power, to an artist trying to get by, it’s not that easy.
19m 16s
PRIYA: Just going off that, language is so important and what we can say ‑ what we say is such a good indicator of how inclusive we’re aiming to be.
We used to see a lot of casting briefs that said ‘looking for people of all abilities’. We now specifically say ‘looking for people who have disability or who don’t’. Call out disability specifically to make sure that the community knows that you have considered them and are open to including them, rather than it just being, “Yeah, everyone’s welcome”.
That isn’t something that I would have thought before I started working in this space. But even little language tweaks like that can make a really big difference. I think also it signals to everyone that you want to be more inclusive. It’s such a little thing you can do. There is no cost associated with it. So language is a great place to start.
20m 47s – The halo effect
JOHANNA: Have you seen any instances of where you’ve been more accessible specifically for people with disabilities and then found that you have made life easier as well for people without them too? You have improved the process for everyone?
PRIYA: I can’t think of any specifically that I have worked on but I have thought of others where that absolutely has been the case. For example, ensuring you have a wheelchair accessible space means a mum with a pram can also get into the building. There is certainly a halo effect, but again I think that makes it a more welcoming environment for everyone, and also making people more likely to disclose when they might not have previously because it is such an inclusive set. I recently heard an access coordinator talk about how productions have her on set to support a specific person, but she actually has had other people in the crew come up to her and say “I’ve not actually disclosed to anyone here that I have a disability but I do. Do you have any tips and strategies how I can work with X, Y and Z within this workplace?” As we have already mentioned nearly 20% of Australians have a disability, so the chances are even if you have support on‑site for just one person, it is going to be really impactful for more than just that one.
22m 26s
DAN: If you can see from the get‑go a venue is accessible ‑ and in many different ways ‑ it does create that domino effect Priya was mentioning of creating that safe space. I was vocal about my own disability and access in the industry, my journey has been going for five plus years. Over time, the more vocal I have been, I have had people coming up to me seeking advice, or seeing what they can do to make it accessible. If people feel welcome, they obviously will create a more welcoming space and, as I said, it can create many different things. There was a major theatre company that I worked with and continue to work with. I remember at the end of the first morning. I knew all the people we were casting and they were public about neurodiversity, and they were looking concerned. I said, “Can I ask what’s wrong?” And they said, “I need to have my script printed on coloured paper”. It made things easier for them, and by bringing it up with the company concerned, it made it easier for everyone else to feel more open. Even simple things. I have someone very close to me, not just myself, who has lived experience of disability. Often, they aren’t able to come and see the productions that I do because they’re not accessible. If you are literally excluding ‑ and I am not saying it is deliberate ‑ it is not just distressing; it is a very emotional, unsafe environment. If people can see inclusion the moment they go in a door ‑ let’s be blunt, it creates better work ultimately.
26m 08s – Commercial benefits
JOHANNA: I saw as well that your most recent advertising campaign has been hugely successful. So it’s not just a case of, ‘oh, it would be nice to be inclusive’, it has quite a lot of commercial benefit.
PRIYA: Absolutely. It drives business results, and a great study just came out in September around the economic opportunities around being inclusive with disability. Now of course all the stats are escaping me. But when we conducted our own research, we found that consumer sentiment did increase that featured people with disability or it stayed the same; there’s no downside to being inclusive of people with disability. No‑one saw an ad that featured someone with disability and said, “Oh, I’m actually going to consider using that brand less”. For the people who had disability or who had someone in their lives with disability, the sentiment shot up. So, yes, 20% of people have disability but the halo effect of people who are touched by disability by either having a friend, a loved one or a coworker is over 70%, so when you think about it in that way, there is no downside and only upsides. When we speak to brands about being involved, there are some brands who just want to do it because it’s the right thing to do but it’s also nice to say there’s a financial incentive as well.
If you’re a brand and you’re not including or considering people with disability, that’s like every time you run a big national campaign, you say “just don’t worry about Queensland, we don’t need them”. Which no‑one would ever do. So there is a big financial incentive as well.
28m 16s – The challenges of tokenism
JOHANNA: Something that might be on a few people’s minds is what are some of the challenges that you might encounter? What might stand in the way of becoming more accessible?
DAN: ‑ I am also the co-Chair of Artists with a Disability currently for MEAA Equity (we have five different co‑Chairs with different forms of diversity).
A challenge is, once you get in that room, how do we create that environment where it’s not tokenistic? I don’t want to speak on behalf of the whole community but we, as the community, want to be seen, heard, represented. That’s fantastic but it has to be done in an authentic way.
What got me in this whole space to begin with ‑ talking about hidden disabilities – is that growing up, I didn’t see anyone like me. Like advertising, I can think of a number of commercials where people with disability have been shown, but at the same time how we can do it in an authentic way? I am not saying people do it intentionally (or maybe they do, what can I say) but when they say “hey, let’s have that disabled person”, it is a hindrance. Back to the MEAA, we are doing a diversity campaign on all forms of diversity. It wasn’t disability exclusively, but everyone on that panel has a disability of some form. It’s not a one size fits all. Maybe it is my cynicism or lived experience (or a bit of both), but you can see when it has literally been put on to have that tag of disability attached to it. Obviously representation is a key, I think we’re all in agreement there, but I worry when it’s not in an authentic way.
Back to what I was saying about growing up ‑ let’s just look at a recent movie. The most recent Wicked that’s just come out. For the first time, the character with lived experience of disability had a person with a disability cast in that role. I think it is hysterical, that the message of the live production is about inclusivity, acceptance, self-acceptance, as well as acceptance of difference, and the performer concerned is getting flak. Obviously, the internet is not the best place to be celebrated or not celebrated, as we know.
But how do we ‑ and I hate saying this word so apologies to anyone who knows me when I say this – just make it a norm? I’m still referred to as being the neurodivergent director. I’m talking about neurodiversity, but I know I’m not the only neurodivergent director out there. Back to my Churchill Fellowship, they asked what would be my hope if I was successful. I said, sooner rather than later, I would like to think that the future Dan/Danielle Grahams would not have to do a report about access. It would be not even commonplace. It would not be ‑ as I jokingly say ‑ a unicorn.
I think it’s very important to have people with lived experience in leadership roles that are not unicorns. I feel I have to justify that projects that I do or that I’m attracted to does not have to deal with disability.
I sometimes have people without disability say to me, “don’t accept your disability”. I won’t swear here but I think everyone can get where I’m going with that. Why can’t there be ‑ and there may be already ‑ a mainstage theatre company that’s actually run by a person with lived experience of a disability? We can have other people. It’s not just about putting on the one show that deals with disability and we have ticked a box. That’s why it is so important, Priya and Dylan’s commitment to the work they’re doing, obviously it comes from Dylan’s own understanding of lived experience.
It’s not about having that person ‑ that image – and we can move along. We can’t just rest on our laurels. This may sound a bit unfair, but often those people who say they’re the most understanding often are the least understanding because they just don’t understand the complexity. I never forget Dylan Alcott, a couple of years ago when he won Australian of the Year. He made the comment he does not speak on behalf of all people with disability, nor all people who use a wheelchair. I don’t speak on the whole community. I say “you see me, you just see one person”. So I think that’s the main thing to think of, or one of anyway.
JOHANNA: I think being siloed into one particular sort of role or one topic in your career all the time… As we know, that can cause some mental health problems, playing the one role for an extended period of time, like actors needing de‑roleing practices. So it certainly does have mental health effect as well.
38m 38s – Business as usual
PRIYA: When we launched, we split up 13 brands across Australia to swap out a scene of an existing ad to feature someone with disability. It was with two things in mind. One, we wanted to show that disability representation is not where it should be. Two, we wanted to make it business as usual, and that is what it has become for a lot of the brands we work with. Every ad that they cast now has someone with disability. It’s not necessarily for a specific role and it is not like that’s the disability role and the only role you can be in. Just, across the cast, there is someone with disability. But when we launched, it was important to us to also look at the suite of ads that we had and cast people in different spaces. So making sure that we cast people with disability in employment roles because that’s challenging perceptions; in family roles and social situations to ensure that we weren’t reinforcing stereotypes that already exist. Also to not only give people with disability the opportunity to see themselves on the screen the way that they hadn’t before but also change the perceptions of people without disability. The one example we always talk about is the AAMI woman. We cast that iconic end frame of the AAMI woman to someone who has low vision, and the reason we did that is because we wanted to have someone see that and be like, “Hang on, can the AAMI woman be blind or have low vision?”. Of course someone can work in an AAMI call centre and have low vision. It was really important to show authentic representation to broaden everyone’s horizons around what people with disability could do. That is what we will continue to strive towards doing and to Dan’s point, if you ever have questions, just ask. Just ask people and especially ask people with lived experience. You can’t make something for a community without involving them in the process. I think that’s key.
41m – The Shift 20 Casting Call
JOHANNA: Could you talk a bit more about how you actually find talent and connect them with employers?
PRIYA: Yes, absolutely. So we launched something called the Shift 20 Casting Call in September this year and the reason for that was, as we spoke about, the traditional casting processes, especially within advertising, have typically been quite closed off to people with disability. We saw three key reasons for that. Reason one was timelines. Reason two was the specificity of the brief. Sometimes brands were being way too specific about what they wanted to find. And three was that the pools of talent with disability who have representation in Australia are quite small, and that is because historically there hasn’t been space in advertising. So it’s a pretty small pool people were working with, however we know that people with disability want to be involved in ads. So we set ourselves the challenge of “Okay, we know there’s appetite from brands, we know people with disability want to be involved, how can we help facilitate those connections in a way that lowers those barriers and breaks them down?” Working with one of our partners TikTok, we launched something called the Shift 20 Casting Call, a TikTok page where anyone with disability across Australia can submit a personality tape and be put up on the page for consideration. Brands, casting directors and creative agencies all across the country have access to those. We have people from five different states already. We have a whole bunch of intersectionality, to your point earlier about crossover identity.
We’re really proud of who we have on the site already and we’re really proud that less than 24 hours of launching, we cast an ad featuring someone from the page.
There’s no cost associated with being on the page, so we’re removing an economic barrier. It’s a personality tape that you can submit in your own time. You can tape it on your phone. You can either do it as a selfie or have someone help you. Hopefully, removing that barrier of time has been useful and then also just making something that’s really simple to do. It’s just your name, your age, if you feel comfortable dig closing your disability ‑ you don’t have to ‑ where you’re located and a fun fact about you. So we have tried to keep it really simple and tight, but then it also means that on the flipside, if you’re a brand looking to cast, you can then go into casting call and say “hey, there are about 7 people in Sydney who I think could be great for this, could we reach out and speak to them?” And then you can contact us and help sort those conversations to ensure access needs are met on set and all of that is in place before talent is there. Potentially for the first time.
44m 12s
JOHANNA: That’s really cool. It mirrors a traditional agency style but the people themselves are coming to the table on their own terms.
PRIYA: 100%. Dylan Alcott was really passionate about that as well, and the fact that it is putting yourself out there in a way that you feel comfortable doing. That’s really important to us to make sure that everyone can just be themselves and present how they feel comfortable.
JOHANNA: Fantastic. Dan, do you want to add anything else on to that?
44m 55s – Lived experience: Finding employment
DAN: The only thing I would say is how do we, as an industry, create an environment that one doesn’t feel ‑ I don’t want to say depressed – but feel alone. I am being very honest here because I feel I can. It’s a very difficult industry to be in, but I am desperately trying to find work. And I’m using me as an example because I know myself more than anyone else. I think it’s very distressing ‑ it gets back to what we are saying about opportunities, understanding, et cetera. I do put myself out there in terms of opportunities, not just exclusively for disability but opportunities in general. And it is very distressing for me as an individual, where not just the doors are locked but literally I can’t see the door at the moment.
I am trying to find work, as I said. To help people’s understanding, I recently have gone to disability employment agencies to seek employment and, as I have said, theatre, performing arts, TV, entertainment, etc, is a difficult industry to begin with, but there must be something that I can utilise my skills, that I can do.
Unfortunately, when you are told to your face – this has been said to me – I am in the ‘too hard basket’. That “you are qualified, Dan, but you have a disability”. It is like not just it’s discrimination or poor me when I say this. I would love to think I could be like a lot of my counterparts who are struggling. Who are working at a restaurant, working at a call centre, but because of my own access needs, disability, those opportunities are not available to me.
This is not me trying to get myself a job (but if anyone has one, please tell me), but how can we actually create a space that I literally cannot feel excluded? I don’t want to talk on behalf of just me when I say this, but the whole community. Literally it’s all one justification when you are trying to live in an environment which is not inclusive, and that can mean in many different ways.
I would like to think there is a space where people would see what individuals with a disability have to offer and I think that’s most important.
I think it is funny that I’ve been overseas for the theatre research and access work I’ve been doing in the last 10 years. I’ve been about eight times, which is quite depressing and exciting at the same time. This year I’ve been to New York twice, yet I don’t have one day of work at the moment. I think there’s something wrong with the system, as I said, I am not knocking back loads of opportunities.
I have learned so much and I would hope this conversation is a wake‑up call extending beyond allies. Obviously, we do need allies, but beyond that circle, things are not being discussed. In an industry that is based on a lot of times on rejection, I knew from day one I had chosen one of the hardest career paths there is. I have never been having grandiose ideas of what it is or isn’t. But at the same time, how do we create that space where one’s emotional welfare is not impacted?
51m 21s – Creating that sense of protection
JOHANNA: I have a question that has come through the chat: For companies who are new to this work, how might that create a sense of protection for actors in the casting process, and to encourage actors to share their access needs without that fear of discrimination?
PRIYA: I think that there are a few ways you can do that. Going back to the language in your briefs and making sure that it is inclusive, can go a long way. Making sure that you’re asking for access needs or requirements upfront. But then also just thinking about the partners you’re using, so who ‑ in advertising, you obviously have the brand, the production agency, or the production company, the casting director and then the talent. So a lot of people ‑ in theatre it might be slightly different. But making sure all those people are aligned with your goal of including people with disability. I think that is important because it can fall down really easily if one person doesn’t do their diligence or says the wrong thing or doesn’t believe in what you’re doing. So I would say the language you’re putting into briefs, making sure you’re being welcomed, you’re educating everyone that you’re working with so that if someone with disability does go through the casting process and this is really positive and they get to set, it is a really positive experience as well, and that everyone onset is using inclusive language. So language, education and making sure all your partners are aligned. Those are my three tips.
53m
JOHANNA: Another question that has come through: Are there any online resources available that you recommend for arts practitioners wishing to improve their knowledge?I know there’s several around. Arts Access Victoria have a good document which I can drop in the chat. Where can you refer people if they want extra help and support?
[Attendee suggested: Disability Justice Lens Course by Screen Careers]
DAN: Most states do have a state arts org, Arts Access Victoria or Accessible Arts in New South Wales ‑ hi if anyone is watching from there. As I said, MEAA is doing a lot of work in this diversity space as a whole and that is gender, race, sexuality, disability, et cetera. I would tell people to keep watch as over the next few months that we are starting to roll out this diversity campaign. Something I found with my Churchill report that often 5, 10 minutes into the recording of the interviews I did, we often stopped the tape. If they themselves didn’t have a disability, someone very close to them was neurodiverse. This is neurodiversity but obviously it can be disability generally. I would like to think the whole reason why I love the industry so much is that sense of community.
So if we can create that community as a whole, we won’t have issues that still happen. This is in an overseas context but I know it happens here. That there are people with disabilities who have tried for a drama school recently and have not gone to the first round because you have disclosed the disability but there hasn’t been that understanding. It’s not just about having one session about inclusivity or how you can make best practice. It’s that continuing discussion. It is all well that an organisation may have a person with a disability on staff or maybe doing training in this area, but what is the plan for the next five years? what is the plan for the next 10 days, et cetera? I think people can tell by now I’m passionate on this topic. I never forget I spoke to a friend at one of the major theatre companies in the UK who I was friends with beforehand and we were talking about the access work I am doing and how important representation is, et cetera, and they stopped me and they said, “Dan, this is fantastic, the work you’re doing. We know that. But can I just say, you’re a director”, and the funny thing is maybe subconsciously or emotionally, I do realise that, but actually having someone say to me that I wasn’t the neurodiverse or disabled Director, I was seen as a director.
